Bisede me ateistet!

S6T6N6

Forumium maestatis
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

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Ma thuaj dhe mua te pakten si ta shikoj e ta takoj.
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Po nuk durove dot, hidhu nga kati 5-te edhe e shikon edhe takon pas pak.

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Sa ja u ka qejfi juve besimtareve qe te na shihni ne varr (nuk keni ndryshuar aspak qe nga mesjeta). Ne predikojme jeten dhe jo pasvdekjen truth. Jetojme me te tashmen dhe duam njeriun.

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Pse nuk arrini te kuptoni qe edhe sikur te ekzistonte ky krijues do ishte teper mizor.A mund te vendose fatin e njerzimit nje molle?
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Ashtu eshte ne fakt, shume mizor duhet te jete, saqe lejon edhe ata qe e urrejne ta shajne dhe ta blasfemojne, dhe u jep mundesi akoma per t'u penduar. Po ajo molla nga doli xhanem? Ku lexove me ndonje vend mollen ti?

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E pra truth nuk mund te besoj asnjehere ne nje Zot qe deshte me shume mollet e veta se sa bijet e vet

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"Ju prura ne kete bote si dele ne mes te ujqerve"?(citim nga bibla).E perse?Qe te na hane ujqerit.

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Kur pranon vete se s'e ke idene cfare eshte Bibla, mos be sikur e citon kot, se jo vetem qe s'e ke cituar sakte, por ti as e ke idene ku ndodhet ai citim, apo perse u tha.

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Ne momentin qe diku citohet dicka na mbetet interpretimi...

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Perse na dha syte kur nuk na le te shikojme,perse na dha gjuhen kur nuk na le te flasim.Shiko po mos prek,prek po mos shijo.Ca jane keto rregulla absurde.Ketij krijuesit i pelqen te luaje me njerzit,eshte lodra e tij e preferuar.Nqs do kishte krijues per mua keto jane te vetmet arsyetime qe mund te behen.

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Nuk e di te kete penguar ty Zoti qe mos kesh shikuar gje, apo te mos flasesh per ndonje gje. Mua me duket se po flet haptazi ketu, nuk shoh te kete penguar gje Zoti per kete!

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Ne Zoti nuk na pengon aspak duke qene se nuk na shfaqet asnjehere per te dhene ndonje shenje jete, por eshte mentaliteti juaj: "Thoni si them une dhe mos beni si bej une" qe na irriton...

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Prandaj njeriu zgjedh mosekzistencen dhe arrin te kuptoje qe zotin e krijoi subkonshi njerzor ne histori.

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JO, njeriu zgjedh mosekzistencen per nje nga keto arsye:

1. Nuk eshte i njohur me faktet.
2. Eshte i keqinformuar.
3. E ka mbyllur zemren dhe s'do te degjoje.
4. Qellimisht refuzon ekzistencen e Zotit.

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Dhe zgjedh te besoje tek nje gje qe nuk eshte per nje nga keto arsye:

1. Ka frike nga vdekja
2. Eshte i kqeinformuar.
3. Ben sikur beson
4. Eshte i paafte per te arsyetuar

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Une nuk mund te shpjegoj si u krijua bota apo njeriu,por nuk me duhet fare.Nuk dua tja di.nqs dikush do ta zbuloje eshte i mirpritur te me jape dituri por pallavrat fetare nuk mund ti besoj kurre.

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Epo kur s'shpjegon dot nga u krijua bota pse flet atehere? Ke ndonje alternative me te mire se kjo qe po te ofrojme? Ti, si ashtu te gjithe ateistet qe po flasin ne kete forum me ne krye Satanin (go figure!) keni mendjen vetem per te kundershtuar Zotin, ju nuk keni asnje prove, asnje fakt, asnje alternative me te mire, thjesht doni te refuzoni Zotin, sepse keshtu keni vendosur ne zemren tuaj, per arsyet qe i dini vete. Ju jeni me fetare sesa ata qe besojne te gogoli dhe ti po na flet per fetaret?

Cfare e konsideron veten ti nese nuk do t'ja dish nga erdhi bota, as nuk e di nga erdhi, por beson cfaredo qe beson i mbeshtetur ne asgje! A nuk eshte ky perkufizimi i fese?

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Por nuk ekziston ende asnje prove e vlefshme qe te vertetoje ekzistencen e Zotit, prandaj eshte e nevojshme, nje kritike e cdo teologjie te krijuar mbi principe spekulative te arsyes.

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Jane perralla,legjenda qe i kane ekzistuar kohes.
Po ju them dhe dicka qe e kam thene me pare,Muhamedin dhe Jezusin une i shikoj si iluzioniste te medhenj te asaj kohe.Imagjinoni David Coperfield ne vitin 33 pas lindjes se Krishtit

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Pas 2000 vjetesh nga lindja e Jezusit, ka miliona vete ne bote qe e adhurojne, dite per dite, mblidhen te pakten nje here ne jave i kendojne kenge atij, ndjekin mesimet e tij, ndertojne familje, shoqeri, shtete mbi parimet e mesimeve te tij dhe ty t'u duka iluzionist? Goxha iluzionist, jo shaka!

Mos do te thuash ti se 2000 vjet me vone do adhuroje njeri Copperfield-in? Do i kendoje njeri kenge? Nga te gjtha vendet e botes? Mos u beni qesharake, me keto krahasime femijesh!

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Ne Kristianizem idea e misterit te con drejtperdrejt ne tiranine e supersticionit...

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:ppKa shume terror,ka shume frike rreth ketij krijuesi qe une mund te besoj tek ai.
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Shpjegoje pak veten, s'e s'po e marrim vesh per cfare po flet!

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Ti e di shume mire se per cka ai po flet prandaj dhe ke zgjedhur te besosh...
 

racionali

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Shume interesante mendimet tuaja dhe te thella ne analizen e gjerave. Megjithate ka plot materiale ne internet, per te cilat kjo ceshtje trajtohet ne detaje.
Po shkeput nje material nga http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/ipnegep.html
Lexojeni ne kohen tuaj te lire.

Is a Proof of the Non-Existence of a God Even Possible? (1998)
Jeffery Jay Lowder

If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.


-- Bertrand Russell, "What Is an Agnostic?" 1953 [1]

A common objection to atheism -- one stated by many scholars and laymen, theists and nontheists -- is that it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God. Yet the atheist response to this objection has been virtually non-existent.[2] This response is the purpose of this paper. Whether it is the responsibility of the methodological atheist to prove metaphysical atheism[3], and whether any atheists have actually proven the non-existence of any gods, are issues beyond the scope of this paper.[4] Rather, I want to examine the mere possibility of an atheological proof. I shall argue that there is no a priori reason why the disproof of a specific god is impossible.

Mortimer Adler
In his recent book Truth in Religion, Mortimer Adler distinguishes "logical disproof of religious belief" from universal negatives (or what he calls "negative existential propositions").[5] The former focuses on some proposition that is an "article of faith," a proposition that cannot be proved but can be "disproved by the proof of propositions that are their logical contraries or contradictories." For example, the Islamic belief that the prophet Muhammad received the Koran directly from Allah is classified by Adler as an "article of faith," because it cannot be proven. Yet, according to Adler, a disproof of an article of faith is possible. If a contradictory of an article of faith could be proven, then by the law of noncontradiction the article of faith would be disproven. Adler offers the following example of how an article of faith might be disproven by a contradictory:


It may be useful here to offer an example, in the case of Christianity, of scientific and technological advances that may call an article of faith into question. If the prediction of computer technologists and researchers into artificial intelligence is ever realized -- that machines can be constructed in the future, the behavior of which will be indistinguishable from the behavior of human beings -- then the Christian belief in the immortality of the human soul will be challenged. That belief depends for its rational support on the immateriality of the human intellect.


If purely material machines can do everything the human intellect can do, in a manner that is indistinguishable from the performance of the intellect, then there is no philosophical ground for affirming the immateriality of the intellect.[6]

Yet Adler believes that this sort of disproof can only go so far. According to Adler, a "negative existential proposition," a proposition which "denies the existence of some thing," "cannot be proved." Just exactly why Adler believes this to be so is unclear, for he does not directly defend his claim. Perhaps Adler believes that negative existential propositions are not or cannot be disproven by proving contradictory, positive existential claims (which he admits can be supported "beyond a reasonable doubt"). Yet this position is false, for there are actually two ways to prove the non-existence of something. One way is to prove that it cannot exist because it leads to contradictions (e.g., square circles[7], married bachelors, etc.). The other way is, in the words of Keith Parsons, "by carefully looking and seeing."[8] This is how we can know that such things as the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, the Abimonable Snowman, etc. do not exist.

Using the first method, we learn that the existence of one possible god may entail the non-existence of one or more other possible gods. The god of Islam (Allah) and the god of Christianity (Jehovah), despite their common origin in the god of Judaism (Yahweh), are mutually exclusive. Jehovah and Allah, at least as traditionally understood, cannot both exist at the same time. Both claim to be the Creator of the universe, but they have contradictory attributes (e.g., Christianity claims that there are three "persons" known as God but Islam claims that there is only one).

Thus, the Christian theist who makes the positive existential claim that the Christian god exists, is implicitly making the negative existential claim that all gods contradictory to the Christian god do not exist. Similarly, the Islamic theist who makes the positive existential claim that the Islamic god exists is implicitly claiming that all gods contradictory to Allah do not exist. And both the Christian and the Islamic theist presuppose the non-existence of the god of Deism, an impersonal Creator of the universe.

Indeed, all of the theistic arguments for the existence of God have equivalent, negative existential propositions. For example:

The ontological argument is equivalent to the proposition, "There is no being greater than the greatest being."
The cosmological argument is equivalent to the proposition, "There is no thing that came from nothing."
The teleological argument is equivalent to the proposition, "There is no naturalistic origin for the design and order of the universe."
The transcendental argument is equivalent to the proposition, "There is no atheist in the world."[9]
But the most decisive refutation of Adler's claim that "negative existential propositions cannot be proven" is the fact that the claim that "negative existential propositions cannot be proven" is itself a negative existential proposition. If negative existential propositions cannot be proven, then that implies there are no proofs for negative existential propositions. But the claim that "there are no proofs for negative existential propositions" is itself a negative existential proposition. I therefore conclude that Adler's a priori objection to negative existential propositions fails.

Hank Hanegraaff, Ron Rhodes, and Kenneth R. Samples
Hank Hanegraaff, Ron Rhodes, and Kenneth R. Samples take a slightly different approach.[10] They argue that atheism is unknowable. This is because, in the words of Hanegraaff,


Simply stated, a person would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to be able to say "there is no God" from his own pool of knowledge. Only someone capable of being in all places at the same time -- with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe -- can make such a statement based on the facts. In other words, a person would have to be God to say there is no God. Hence, the assertion is logically indefensible.[11]

Yet it is not clear why the person who asserts that a particular god does not exist must be "capable of being in all places at the same time -- with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe." To be sure, theists who make the claim that "a specific god exists" do not feel that they must be omniscient and omnipresent. So why must the atheist be omniscient and omnipresent in order to affirm the opposite conclusion? Ron Rhodes has an answer to this question. He writes:


This point can be forcefully emphasized by asking the atheist if he has ever visited the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. Mention that the library presently contains over 70 million items (books, magazines, journals, etc.). Also point out that hundreds of thousands of these were written by scholars and specialists in the various academic fields. Then ask the following question: "What percentage of the collective knowledge recorded in the volumes in this library would you say are within your own pool of knowledge and experience?" The atheist will likely respond, "I don't know. I guess a fraction of one percent." You can then ask: "Do you think it is logically possible that God may exist in the 99.9 percent that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?" Even if the atheist refuses to admit the possibility, you have made your point and he knows it.[12]

Of course, in response, the atheist could simply ask the theist, "Do you think it is logically possible that a knock-down, deductive disproof of your god may exist in the 99.9 percent that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?" If the atheist is "dogmatic" for claiming that a god does not exist, is the theist also dogmatic for claiming that a god does exist? Of course not. Even in Rhodes' scenario, all that is necessary is that a particular god's existence logically imply something that we know is false within the .1% of knowledge that Rhodes says we have. It then logically follows -- we have a deductive proof -- that that particular god does not exist. If Rhodes is going to claim that all propositions having any kind of deductive relationship to "god exists" are outside of what we know, then Rhodes has the burden of proof to show that.[13]

Bertrand Russell
Yet another objection to the possibility of an atheological proof can be found in the writings of Bertrand Russell. In order to understand the basis for Russell's objection, we must first understand how Russell defined the terms 'atheist' and 'agnostic':


An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism.[14]

On Russell's view, while the agnostic who holds that the existence of a god "is so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice" is "not far removed" from the atheist who holds that we can know that god does not exist, apparently they are removed far enough for Russell to insist upon the distinction. Yet what is the distinction in question here? If the agnostic who holds that the existence of a god "is so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice" is not an atheist, then, on Russell's view, the atheist who holds that that same god does not exist must have a deductive proof for the non-existence of that god.

But why must the person who claims that a specific god does not exist be able to prove so deductively? Russell never says. There is nothing inherent in the concept of a god that somehow makes it inappropriate to form probabilistic conclusions about the existence of that god, in the light of all the available evidence.[15] Moreover, what Russell wrote elsewhere seems to contradict his position:


None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of Homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.[16]

Yet Russell does not state that he is "agnostic" concerning the existence of such a deductive proof; rather, he knows "you could not get such proof" even though he does not prove so deductively.[17] Granted, there may be no way to disprove certain interpretations of the Greek gods, if they are defined so that there are no contradictions either internally or with the observable world. But other possible gods are falsifiable. They have self-contradictory properties or logically entail empirical data other than what we in fact see, and Russell never demonstrates the impossibility of disproving those gods. The possibility of a logical disproof of one particular god does not depend upon the success of a logical disproof of another god.

Dallas Willard
A final objection to the possibility of an atheological proof perhaps may be found in Dallas Willard's commentary on the debate between J.P. Moreland and Kai Nielsen. I emphasize the word "perhaps" because it is unclear whether Willard is arguing that atheistic arguments are inherently more difficult to prove than theistic arguments in light of their negative existential status; Willard may believe that atheistic and theistic arguments are on equal footing in terms of what they must accomplish in order to be successful. Here is what Willard writes:


["There is no God"] is a negative existential, and looking for God here or there, finding or proving this not to be God and that not to be God, does nothing to budge it one bit toward or away from the status of knowledge or even of justified belief. To make any headway at all with the atheist's project, we will have to settle on some general considerations that will provide a structure within which particular facts may evidentially count for something. For example, take the general consideration that if God exists, suffering will not be allowed. Given this, the particular fact of this child being sexually abused by a drunken relative gains evidential significance for the existence or nonexistence of God. But then, of course, we have the task of securing the truth of this particular general consideration. A notoriously difficult undertaking![18]

This, of course, is perfectly compatible with my earlier observation that there are two ways to prove something does not exist: one way is to demonstrate a logical contradiction and the other way is to simply look and see. Willard's "general considerations" are simply an analysis of the attributes of the object in question.

To put it another way, Willard's "general considerations" are the prerequisites for both negative and positive existentials. We must have an adequate understanding of what an object's existence entails before we can argue for or against its existence. Positive existentials do not have an advantage over negative existentials in this sense.

Willard suggests that "securing the truth" of his particular example of a general consideration, "that if God exists, suffering will not be allowed," will be "notoriously difficult." Now I would certainly join Willard in rejecting that particular consideration, for even theism is compatible with some suffering. But I would also suggest that there is some suffering -- namely, pointless suffering -- which is incompatible with theism. So let us consider a slightly modified version of Willard's example, "the general consideration that if God exists, no pointless suffering will be allowed." I think this consideration is fairly uncontroversial. Recent theistic scholarship on the argument from evil has not even questioned this consideration, much less deny it.[19] I therefore conclude that there is at least one such consideration -- agreed upon by both theists and atheists -- which demonstrates the possibility of an atheological argument.

Moreover, with respect to the existence of a particular god, there is a sense in which negative existentials have an advantage over positive existentials. According to the principle of indifference, when we don't have any evidence favoring any of a set of alternatives over the others, we should count each alternative equally likely. Since there is literally an infinite number of logically possible gods, the prior probability of any individual god existing is very small.[20]

Conclusion
In this paper, I have emphasized the possibility of disproving specific gods. I suspect that many people are under the false impression that the atheist is under some fictitious obligation to prove the non-existence of all possible gods in a single argument, in turn probably because many people conflate atheism with materialism.[21] I would be the first person to grant that there is probably not a single argument which proves the non-existence of all logically possible gods. But the existence of such an argument is not what the theism vs. atheism debate is all about. Rather, the issue is which, if any, logically possible gods exist. While some possible gods (e.g., the Greek Pantheon) do appear to be unfalsifiable, there does not appear to be any a priori reason why other possible gods cannot be disproved.

Acknowledgments
I am grateful to Jim Lippard, Mark Vuletic, Michael Martin, Theodore Drange, David McFadzean, Bill Schultz, and Rich Daniel for suggestions which improved this essay.

Notes
[1] Bertrand Russell, "What Is an Agnostic?" The Basic Writings of Bertrand Russell (ed. Robert E. Egner and Lester E. Denonn, New York: Touchstone, 1961), p. 577.

[2] To my mind, the only atheist who has directly responded to this objection is Mark Vuletic. See his essay, "Is Atheism Logical?" (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/logical.html , 1996).

I suppose that it might be objected that anyone who has published an argument for the nonexistence of a god has implicitly refuted the objection that such an argument is impossible. This is true, to the extent that such arguments are sound arguments. But the atheist response to the objection that "it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God" need not depend on the soundness of such arguments. Even if all arguments for the non-existence of gods failed, that would still not prove the impossibility of a sound argument for the non-existence of a god.

[3] Methodological atheists, in contrast to metaphysical atheists, do not necessarily hold the positive belief that a particular god does not exist. A methodological atheist is simply a person who acts as if a god does not exist.

[4] On the former, see "Does the Atheist Bear a Burden of Proof? A Reply to Prof. Ralph McInerny" (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_parsons/mcinerny.html, 1997), and God and the Burden of Proof (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus, 1989), both by Keith M. Parsons. As for the latter, atheist philosophers are contributing a growing number of books and articles on atheological arguments. These arguments include divine incoherence arguments (see Michael Martin, Atheism: A Philosophical Justification [Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1990], pp. 286-316), the atheistic teleological argument (Martin, pp. 317-333), the atheistic cosmological argument (see Quentin Smith, "Atheism, Theism, and Big Bang Cosmology" Theism, Atheism, and Big Bang Cosmology [by William Lane Craig and Quentin Smith, New York: Oxford University Press, pp. 195- 217]), the evidential argument from evil (see esp. The Evidential Argument from Evil [Ed. Daniel Howard-Snyder, Indianapolis, IN: Indiana University Press, 1996]), the transcendental argument for the non-existence of God (see Michael Martin, "The Transcendental Argument for the Non-Existence of God" http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/martin-frame/tang.html , 1997), and the argument from nonbelief (see Theodore Drange, "The Arguments from Evil and Nonbelief" [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/aeanb.html , 1996] and Nonbelief and Evil [Buffalo, NY: Prometheus, forthcoming]).

[5] Mortimer Adler, Truth in Religion (New York: Macmillan, 1990), p. 36.

[6] Adler, pp. 31-32.

[7] To be precise, it is quite easy to prove that two-dimensional "square circles" cannot exist. In contrast, as Richard Swinburne points out, proving the coherence of any proposition is very difficult because there always remains the possibility that an actual contradiction has not yet been discovered. See Richard Swinburne, The Coherence of Theism (revised ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1993), pp. 38-49.

[8] Parsons 1989, p. 25.

[9] According to the late Greg Bahnsen, "The claim of the presuppositionalist is there is no atheist in the world. There are people who profess atheism." See Bahnsen, Michael Martin Under the Microscope tape 1, (Nash, TX: Covenant Tape Ministry, n.d.), audiocassette. For a refutation of this argument, see Michael Martin, "Are There Really No Atheists?" (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/no_atheists.html , 1996).

[10] Hank Hanegraaff, "The Folly of Denying God" Christian Research Newsletter (http://iclnet93.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-nwsl/crn0028a.txt , 1990); Ron Rhodes, "Strategies for Dialoguing with Atheists" (http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atheism.html , 1989); and Kenneth R. Samples, "Putting The Atheist on The Defensive" Christian Research Journal (http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/crj0131a.txt , 1992).

[11] Hanegraaff. Michael Martin, following the lead of Roland Puccetti, has developed an incoherence argument called "the argument from unrestricted existential statements" which attempts to demonstrate the incoherence of gods which purportedly have all factual knowledge. Martin argues that negative existential propositions are unknowable if they are completely unrestricted. See Martin, pp. 294-295.

[12] Rhodes.

[13] I am grateful to Jim Lippard for this argument.

[14] Russell, p. 577.

[15] See Michael Martin, The Big Domino in the Sky and Other Atheistic Tales (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus, 1996), pp. 48-49.

[16] Bertrand Russell, "Am I an Atheist or an Agnostic?" Bertrand Russell on God and Religion (ed. Al Seckel, Buffalo, NY: Prometheus, 1986), p. 85. Italics are mine.

[17] If Russell feels that he can know such a thing without deductive proof, then he cannot consistently insist that the atheist must have a deductive proof in order to know that a specific god does not exist.

[18] Dallas Willard, "Language, Being, God, & the Three Stages of Theistic Evidence" in J.P. Moreland and Kai Nielsen, Does God Exist? (Buffalo, NY: Prometheus, 1991), p. 198. Boldface mine.

[19] Instead, theists deny the existence of any actually pointless suffering. See Howard-Snyder, 1996.

[20] A point of clarification is in order. It is not necessarily true that the low prior probability of a particular god existing constitutes an argument for the non-existence of a particular god. There are certain gods -- what we might call "hidden" gods -- whose existence would entail the state of affairs in which their prior probability is low and in which there is no evidence of their existence. To use prior probability to prove the non-existence of those gods would be logically fallacious.

[21] Michael Martin, "Opening Statement by Michael Martin" The Fernandes-Martin Debate (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/michael_martin/fernandes-martin/martin1.html, 1997).


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"Is a Proof of the Non-Existence of a God Even Possible?" is copyright © 1998 by Jeffery Jay Lowder.
The electronic version is copyright © 1998 Internet Infidels with the written permission of Jeffery Jay Lowder.


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^Res-Cogitans^

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Me dhimbje koke...mund t'ju hedh nje kritik: Forumi nuk esht per te hedhur gazeta...por per nje bashkpunim & krahasim mendimesh. HIdhni ç'far mendoni ju personalisht dhe jo ça thot poplli jasht,se ne kte rast raprezentoni vetem veten tuaj .....
Mgjths ju lexova kto 10000 faqe copy.

(^=^)
 

OROSHI

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Respekt per ateistet /pf/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ,respekt edhe per besimtaret /pf/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ,me mire nje ateist sesa nje besimtar kot :wave:
 

Truth_Matters

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Satan,

Ti mund te jesh i bindur qe nuk ka nje Zot dhe jam i sigurt qe shume justifikime qe te pengojne te shohesh anen e atyre qe thone se ka. Atehere cfare provash ke ti per ato qe beson ti? Ose me sakte cfare beson ti, se deri tani ne nuk dime cfare beson ti. Ne kemi shprehur se cfare besojme dhe ti vetem ke kundershtuar cdo gje qe besimtaret kane thene. Po ti per vete a beson ndonje gje, apo qellimi yt ne jete eshte vetem te shuash ndergjegjen tende duke "provuar" se s'ka Zot!
 

Truth_Matters

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Teknikisht, Zoti nuk eshte objekt, por nje qenie reale.

Besimi im ne Zot mbeshtetet ne disa plane:

1. Plani logjik.
2. Plani shkencor.
3. Plani vizual.
4. Plani moral.
5. Plani biblik.

Po ti ne cfare e mbeshtet besimin tend, dhe cili eshte besimi yt tamam?
 

Ramses

Forumium praecox
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Truth me vjen keq qe disa gjerave ja ke futur kot.Per fat te keq u pergjigj dikush tjeter para meje dhe tani une nuk dua te perseris te njejtat gjera.Nqs nuk di simbolin e molles ne bibel atehere me vjen keq per ty.Nqs ai citimi i mesiper nuk eshte shkruajtur ne bibel atehere me siguri gjendet ne ndonje ungjill sepse une nuk mund te mbaj mend perrallat qe me tregonin kur isha i vogel se nga jane shkeputur.Sa per terrorin e friken keto jane gjera qe ekzistojne tek figura e zotit dhe mua nuk me shtyjne te besoj apo jo?Per ate qe te shikoja zotin sa me shpejt duke u hedhur nga kati i 5kam dyshimet e mia.Figura e atij iluzionisti ishte me shume simbolike se i marre si nje shembull i vertet.Ti e the dhe vete qe asnjeri nuk ka per te veneruar figuren e tij pas shume kohesh ndersa ate te Jezusit po sepse njeriu ka arritur nje konceptim tjeter dhe jo ate te kafsherimit te dikurshem qe ne nuk eshte se e njohim shume mire.Vertet nuk kam fakte te shpjegoj prejardhjen e botes apo te njerzimit por edhe ato perrallat tuaja jane shume pak bindese.Me mjafton te di qe jam djali i dy njerzve e te di sadopak historine e njerzimit se besimin tim nuk mund ta ndertoj tek mosekzistenca por tek vyrtytet njerzore,tek dashuria,familja,shoqeria etj etj.Sa per ate qe zoti na dha sy e shqisa te tjera(sipas jush kuptohet)na i dha vertet por na dha dhe shume rregulla qe te na vinte limite ne perdorimin e tyre.Une nuk mund te pranoj kurrsesi qe jam pjelle e incestit:"Zoti krijoi Even pasaj Adamin e keta linden dy femije.Lind pyetja si u shumuam ne?"Pergjigja e kesaj pyetjeje nuk me pelqen dhe eshte e papranueshme.Nqs do te gjesh ndonje pergjigje te sakte hap ato librat e tua me perralla e lexoi mire e shpresoj te ma hedhesh poshte se une fatkeqesisht nuk kam durim me i lexuar.Mos mendo se ne kete bote i vetem besim qe ekziston eshte zoti dhe feja,ndoshta bota do ishte me e mire po te besonim tek ato qe thashe me pare edhe pse ty mund te te duket absurde te besosh tek keto gjera predikon feja.

ps:"Zoti eshte e vetmja qenie,qe per te mbreteruar,nuk ka nevoje te ekzistoje"
 

Ramses

Forumium praecox
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Teknikisht, Zoti nuk eshte objekt, por nje qenie reale.

Besimi im ne Zot mbeshtetet ne disa plane:

1. Plani logjik.
2. Plani shkencor.
3. Plani vizual.
4. Plani moral.
5. Plani biblik.

Po ti ne cfare e mbeshtet besimin tend, dhe cili eshte besimi yt tamam?


Meqe kam pak kohe.Nje besimtar duhet te besoje dhe kaq.Pa plane llogjike,shkencore(nuk e kuptova chyn kjo me besimin),vizual(nqs ti ke pare gje une jam zoti i ateisteve:pp),moral e ka treguar koha moralin tuaj,te besosh tek perrallat eshte vertet dicka eklatante.Ti kushedi sa here e ke vene ne dyshim ekzistencen e zotit qe kerkon dhe gjen gjithe keto shpjegime per te vertetuar ekzistencen e tij.Nga i di gjithe keto gjera.As duhet te te shkojne ne mendje gjera te tilla sepse ti ke besimin dhe kaq.nuk shpjegim ne fe,nuk pergjigje te pyetjes Pse.Ndoshta duhet te futesh ca me thelle ne besimin tend...
 

Truth_Matters

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

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Nje besimtar duhet te besoje dhe kaq.Pa plane llogjike,shkencore(nuk e kuptova chyn kjo me besimin),vizual(nqs ti ke pare gje une jam zoti i ateisteve:pp),moral e ka treguar koha moralin tuaj,te besosh tek perrallat eshte vertet dicka eklatante.
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Kjo qe the ti vlen per nje besimtar te fese se evolucionit, une e kisha fjalen per nje besimtar ne Zot. Plani shkencor hyn ne kete mes me teper se besimi yt. Ai vizual hyn me teper sesa hyn besimi ty, une nuk thashe qe kam pare Zotin, por une kam pare shume nga gjerat qe Ai ka bere. Barra bie mbi ty zoteri te provosh qe gjithcka u krijua vete me nje abrakadabra miliarda vjecare! Per ne shpjegimi eshte mjaft i lehte, cdo gje e ka nje krijues, e shohim apo nuk e shohim ne, prandaj edhe universi nuk eshte perjashtim. KJo eshte e thjeshte edhe llogjike. Ju qe kundershtoni kete rregull qe vlen per cdo gje, juve ju bie barra te provoni se kjo s'eshte e vertete, por me prova ama jo me kundershtime dhe thenie fetare sic jane ato tuajat.

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Ti kushedi sa here e ke vene ne dyshim ekzistencen e zotit qe kerkon dhe gjen gjithe keto shpjegime per te vertetuar ekzistencen e tij.
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Une kam mbi 12 vjet qe s'e ve ne dyshim egzistencen e Zotit. Une nuk po kerkoj shpjegime per egzistencen e Zotit tani, une i kerkova atehere kur nuk besoja por pas 12 vjetesh ecje me Zotin, nuk kam asnje pike dyshimi.

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Nga i di gjithe keto gjera.
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I di zoteri keto gjera sepse kam studiuar, nuk jam marre me perralla, apo relativizem qe s'te con asgjekundi, por me studime serioze qe me kane cuar ne keto perfundime.

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As duhet te te shkojne ne mendje gjera te tilla sepse ti ke besimin dhe kaq.nuk shpjegim ne fe,nuk pergjigje te pyetjes Pse.Ndoshta duhet te futesh ca me thelle ne besimin tend...
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Absolutisht jo. Une jam besimtar (ashtu si cdo njeri tjeter), por kjo s'do te thote se s'kam tru, apo nuk i perdor ato qe Zoti me ka dhene.

Na jep ti njehere pergjigjen e pyetjes pse meqenese me thua qe une nuk e dikam! Ti pranove vete qe as e di nga erdhi bota as do t'ja dish.

E vetmja gje qe ti do, se bashku me Satanin (ate falson jo te vertetin /pf/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) eshte qe te kundershtoni Zotin, kaq asgje me shume. Ne te kundert do benit nje bisede llogjike te bazuar ne fakte per besimin tuaj, por ju i shmangeni qellimisht sepse as vete nuk e dini cfare besoni dhe ku qendroni.
 

fairy

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Lexova shume postime te kesaj teme dhe te them te drejten disa kendveshtrime m'u duken shume interesante. Gjithsesi mendoj se besimi ne Zot dhe thjesht ideja per Zotin eshte shume personale dhe nuk ka nevoje as per mbushjeje mendje dhe as per te kunderten. Ne kete pike, si fetaret qe ecin me symbyllur ashtu edhe disa nga ateistet e egersuar, padashur behen ekstremiste duke dale me shpate ne dore, per te imponuar idete e tyre. Une besoj ne Zot, ndoshta ne menyren time, por jane fete, aq te ndryshme nga njera-tjetra, ato qe s'ma mbushin mendjen. Nuk u besoj atyre fetareve qe pretendojne se njohin Zotin me shume se te tjeret e dine fjalet e Zotit. Per mua Zoti ben kontaktin me ane me te mire te cdo njeriu. Disa e kapin me ane te nje shqise te vecante e disa te tjere jo, por me pelqen te mendoj se egziston tek te gjithe. Gjithashtu me duket interesante dhe teoria e memeve. Besoj se te gjithe besimtaret ketu jane dakord me mua kur i referohem Zotit, si gjeja me e larte e me emire, si dicka qe te mbush shpirtin. Qe ketu, mendoj se sa me shume dicka behet imponuese(qofte edhe besimi ne Zot), aq me teper largohet nga miresia qe perfaqson Zotin. Nje besim i ardhur si pasoje e kercenimit dhe frikes nuk eshte as i paster, e as i mire. Gjithsesi, shume njerez e shohin Zotin si mbrojtje e si pike referimi. Njerezit kane menyra te ndryshme per t'u mbrojtur, jo vetem prej armikut, por edhe prej natyres e te panjohures. Per t'u mbrojtur nga e panjohura disa njerez e kultura ofrojne shkencen e te tjera fene. Zoti, per mua qendron ne nje plan tjeter, shume personal. Sa per pytjen se kush e krijoi universin...nuk di c'te them, gjithsesi kushdo qe e ka krijuar ka bere goxha pune te mire. /pf/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

ShkodraniNY

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Nje thenje e arte thote :
- "Kemi pare individ dhe popuj, jo duke mos e njohur Zotin por duke e mohuar Ate ".

:book: read read ......
 

S6T6N6

Forumium maestatis
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

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DB - Nje besimtar duhet te besoje dhe kaq.Pa plane llogjike,shkencore(nuk e kuptova chyn kjo me besimin),vizual(nqs ti ke pare gje une jam zoti i ateisteve:pp),moral e ka treguar koha moralin tuaj,te besosh tek perrallat eshte vertet dicka eklatante.
------------------------------

TM - Kjo qe the ti vlen per nje besimtar te fese se evolucionit, une e kisha fjalen per nje besimtar ne Zot. Plani shkencor hyn ne kete mes me teper se besimi yt. Ai vizual hyn me teper sesa hyn besimi ty, une nuk thashe qe kam pare Zotin, por une kam pare shume nga gjerat qe Ai ka bere. Barra bie mbi ty zoteri te provosh qe gjithcka u krijua vete me nje abrakadabra miliarda vjecare! Per ne shpjegimi eshte mjaft i lehte, cdo gje e ka nje krijues, e shohim apo nuk e shohim ne, prandaj edhe universi nuk eshte perjashtim. KJo eshte e thjeshte edhe llogjike. Ju qe kundershtoni kete rregull qe vlen per cdo gje, juve ju bie barra te provoni se kjo s'eshte e vertete, por me prova ama jo me kundershtime dhe thenie fetare sic jane ato tuajat.

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S6 - Me jep pergjigjen truth te lutem KUSH E KRIJOI ZOTIN sepse ti thua qe cdo gje ka nje krijues...

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DB - Ti kushedi sa here e ke vene ne dyshim ekzistencen e zotit qe kerkon dhe gjen gjithe keto shpjegime per te vertetuar ekzistencen e tij.
-------------------------

TM - Une kam mbi 12 vjet qe s'e ve ne dyshim egzistencen e Zotit. Une nuk po kerkoj shpjegime per egzistencen e Zotit tani, une i kerkova atehere kur nuk besoja por pas 12 vjetesh ecje me Zotin, nuk kam asnje pike dyshimi.

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S6 - Te ecesh me Zotin nuk eshte gje e keqe perkundrazi... por kujdes mos i fol rruges se do te te marrin per te cmendur si njerin tek lagjia ime.

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DB - Nga i di gjithe keto gjera.
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TM - I di zoteri keto gjera sepse kam studiuar, nuk jam marre me perralla, apo relativizem qe s'te con asgjekundi, por me studime serioze qe me kane cuar ne keto perfundime.

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S6 - Je marre me biblen qe eshte perralla me e bukur qe kam lexuar ndonjehere. Nje veper e jashtezakonshme (vleresoj stilin) per te genjyer femijet mbi 2 vjec, injorantet dhe ata qe jane ne prag te varrit. Mua nuk me rrezulton qe asnje njeri te kete besuar pasi ka lexuar veprat e Leibniz, Descartes, Malebranche apo Anselmo... ti keshilloj

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DB - As duhet te te shkojne ne mendje gjera te tilla sepse ti ke besimin dhe kaq.nuk shpjegim ne fe,nuk pergjigje te pyetjes Pse.Ndoshta duhet te futesh ca me thelle ne besimin tend...

-------------------------

TM - Absolutisht jo. Une jam besimtar (ashtu si cdo njeri tjeter), por kjo s'do te thote se s'kam tru, apo nuk i perdor ato qe Zoti me ka dhene.

Na jep ti njehere pergjigjen e pyetjes pse meqenese me thua qe une nuk e dikam! Ti pranove vete qe as e di nga erdhi bota as do t'ja dish.

E vetmja gje qe ti do, se bashku me Satanin (ate falson jo te vertetin ) eshte qe te kundershtoni Zotin, kaq asgje me shume. Ne te kundert do benit nje bisede llogjike te bazuar ne fakte per besimin tuaj, por ju i shmangeni qellimisht sepse as vete nuk e dini cfare besoni dhe ku qendroni.

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S6 - Ta them une truth... Kur Zoti hesht mund te thuash ate qe do ti.
 

ShkodraniNY

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Nje ftese per ju S6T6N6
Kjo ftese varet edhe nga vendodhja juaj.

Me kenaqesi do tu takoheshim bashke per biseda te tilla sepse fatmiresisht ndodhem ne nje projekt te department of state for religion relations in USA prane nje college ketu ne NY.Mund t'ju sjell mijera literatura qe mbase do te te nevojiteshin ju si ateist(nje shpirt ne kerkim te mohimit)It's gonna be my pleasure to talk with your.I'm ready to help you for your path.I'm realy feel so sorry for your.
Shpresoj qe te marrish nje kthjellim ne mendje.

Byeee
 

S6T6N6

Forumium maestatis
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Te faleminderit realisht per ftesen i dashur shkodran dhe me fal per refuzimin....

Gjej me vend te te them se jam njohur shume mire me literaturen teiste ne te cilen perplasem me kontradikta te medha "pra hyj per te shpetuar dhe gjendem mes enigmave te tjera shume here me te medha", dhe gjej arsyen, moralin dhe te verteten diku tjeter. (te rekomandoj te lexosh hyrjen e temes ku ke dhe tituj te librave dhe autore e filozofe te ndryshem qe ti mendoj se duhet te lexosh)
 

Truth_Matters

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Satan,

Nuk e dija qe te kishte ngecur bisede tek "Kush e krijoi Zotin", por meqenese ti nuk ke c'te thuash gje tjeter pervec se te kundershtosh argumentat tona, ngaqe ti s'beson asgje dhe gjithcka, atehere po i pergjigjem asaj pyetje.

Zotin nuk e krijoi askush. Eshte e vertete qe une thashe qe cdo gje e ka nje krijues, por kjo (logjikisht) vlen per gjerat qe ndodhen ne universin tone, jo jashte ketij universi. Krijuesi nuk u nenshtrohet ligjeve te krijimit. Nese ti krijon nje televizor ti nuk je skllav i ligjeve qe televizori u nenshtrohet. Ato ligje nuk zbatohen per ty. Zoti krijoi gjithe universin dhe caktoi ligje te caktuara. Cdo gje ndodh brenda ketyre ligjeve, me perjashtim te gjerave qe kane nje influence jashte ketij universi! Por ne qofte se besojme se universi u "krijua" nga rastesia, atehere s'ka cfare force te jashtme te veproje ne te, prandaj te gjitha ligjet e observueshme jane te pakundershtueshme. Prandaj ju nuk besoni tek mrekullite, sepse nuk besoni se nje force qe ekziston jashte ketij universi dhe qe s'eshte objekt i ligjeve te universit mund te nderhyje.

Atehere, duke mohuar kete gje, ju e vini veten ne nje pozite te veshtire. Sepse nga njera ane mohoni krijuesin dhe mundesine e ekzistences se Tij, nga ana tjeter nuk pranoni qe ligjet qe qeverisin universin zbatohen ne fushat ju ato deshmojne se ka nje krijues.

Jo me kot deri tani kemi theksuar se ju jeni me fetare sesa besimtaret, sepse nuk provoni dot absolutisht asgje me shkence.

Heshtja juaj eshte prove e asaj qe po them.

Atehere, pyetja jote eshte e lehte, dhe sido qe ta kapesh, ti humbet.

Nqs nuk ka Zot, atehere pse nuk zbatoni ligjet e universit kur vjen puna se cdo gje ka nje krijues (Ligji 1 TErmodinamikes)?

Nqs do thoni kush krijoi Zotin, kjo nenkupton se Zoti ka krijuar gjithcka, prandaj pse nuk pranoni shpjegimin se eshte plotesisht e mundshme qe Zoti te kete egzistuar perjetesisht, dhe nuk ka asnje kontradikte ne kete mes, sepse krijuesi nuk eshte subjekt i ligjeve te krijimit te Tij!

Nqs do denjosh t'i pergjigjesh ketij shkrimi, atehere te lutem, te lutem, leri theniet e tua filozofike relativiste, ne po te flasim logjikisht dhe shkencerisht, dhe akoma po presim qe pala juaj te beje te njejten gje.

Eshte hera e fundit qe jua bejme kete ftese. Pala jone e mbajti fjalen, ju jo.

Nqs nuk pergjigjeni, atehere ne fitojme. Kaq e thjeshte eshte.
 

Bamir Topi

Primus registratum
Re: Bisede me ateistet!

Nqs do thoni kush krijoi Zotin, kjo nenkupton se Zoti ka krijuar gjithcka
Po kete ku e ke marre te Shen Agustini!? Pse duhet pranuar se zoti nuk ka krijues dhe duhet pranuar pa mendim se cdo gje tjeter ka krijues.
2 Ligji I termodinamikes nuk eshte ai atje OK? Studio ca djalke i mbare? Ku e ke bere shkollen ne ndonje kuvend apo seminar katolik!?
 
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