thoughts!

Hipparchia

Primus registratum
thoughts!

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Tema eshte nisur ne gjuhen angleze, por mqs eshte nje teme e goditur filozofike dhe prej qenies te shume citimeve nga origjinali, nuk po e mbyllim, por do t'u lutesha qe postimet e metejshme te jene ne gjuhen tone shqipe. Flmnd per mirekuptimin!

What frightens me is the vastness of this world I live in, which I neither comprehend nor think it is possible for anyone to do so in a lifetime (or perhaps even many). Somehow it even seems unwise to pretend that we do so at all. We cannot know everything that is out there, yes, we cannot understand the big picture, the universe as a whole, but, on the other hand, I are not able to understand everything even about parts of it, particulars, no matter how deeply we ponder or examine them.

My fear is connected with the unknown, because we appear to have an inherent sense that whatever we know, we do not fear. Hence the fear of what if foreign and unknown. But if there is a way to deal with this fear of the yet unknown and incomprehensible except by trying to learn (and find out) as much as possible, I do not know. Perhaps communicating the impossibility of this ability to fully know may be a way to lessen the fear, or afford ourselves some solace in our common ignorance, and give ourselves a sense of liberation from the chains of this innate “need to know” that can be the cause of so much suffering to the human mind.

Given where I am now, what would help would be some indication (i.e., higher knowledge being given to me) that the world is not as hopeless as it seems to be. The vainness and absurdity that surround my life cannot be helped by any means whatever I can think of. But perhaps a higher ability to understand what is out there, what is true, what is the case, could help me fear less the unknown. (But what if this, too, is but an illusion! I am afraid that it is…)

I have not previously thought of it being possible to find ways of achieving this higher knowledge of the universe (of the many particulars that make it up and therefore of the whole of it), but my sense is that, if we consider the question analytically, in other words, if we continue to philosophize in both the practical/physical and abstract terms (i.e., continue doing science and philosophy), it seems plausible to think that a better understanding is indefinitely possible. But the question still remains whether this is the way we will always feel about knowledge, namely that it is inadequate…There is so little that has persisted through time unchanged of which I can name the ability to reason, to question the same ideas/issue that unsettle us, all over again…to continually doubt our ability to know anything beyond what is closest to our understanding of the brevity of bodies’ existence (in this form, as a “particular” being, rather than some other form of the earth), but nothing really beyond that. The only things that are proving true to time are the nature of the questions we pose to ourselves, the course of the organization (and disintegration) of societies, rises and falls of civilizations (and “civilizations”), or empires. My vague perception of the course of the history of science tells me that what we call science is what we believe to be the case at the time we develop certain methods of generating understanding, and have the proposed claims pass all the tests or our premises, which would have been based on our then current understanding and established theories.
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The thing that unsettles me about Pascal is the seemingly impossible marriage between reason and religion. On the one hand, Pascal’s brilliant lucidity and precise manner of expression rings true to me, or reasonable beyond doubt; his pessimistic thoughts on the human condition; the aspects of our lives, our experiences in general; what we like to do and what we do not; all these and more seem to have been thought out in such correct terms that they made me shed tears of understanding, of profoundly feeling the nature of his thoughts. The world of perception Pascal conveys us is so deep and truthful that it somehow betrays what he has to say about religion and Jesus. Consider, for instance, the argument of the wager. From my understanding of this argument, it feels to me that Pascal’s reason is somehow overcome by his emotion of self-love. His faith in God (or in the unknown?) does not seem genuine, for the very reason for which he gives such an artificial argument…
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P: God is a definition of our ignorance.
X: J, That’s a good definition of God.
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Memory is necessary for the improvement of the intellect; though not the only one that is so, for it seems that there has to be a capacity—either innate, acquired, or both—that gives the intellect the power to interpret memories of past experiences and understanding. But memory seems necessary in that in order for the intellect to do its job well, the mind has to be able to remember things, and be able to connect them in a logical/sensible fashion that will lead to greater understanding and elasticity of the intellect (or of the power of interpretation?).
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Pascal says: “All our dignity consists, then, in thought.”
With all due respect, I am afraid that after expounding to such lengths on the “wretchedness” of humankind, what should be concluded is that “All our absurdity (i.e., the absurdity of our existence), then, consists in thought.”
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How is reality connected to love…the “reality of love” is the greatest illusion in the scheme of the actual reality. (I know, this statement calls forth the question: what is the actual reality? if there is one) It is a “temporary madness” (as I believe Ambrose Bierce has claimed in his infamous dictionary), which delights our being but afterwards—once the madness is over--offends our intellect.

The lover not only sees the beloved as he is not, and idealizes him to the limit of the preposterous, but she even makes up knowledge of the beloved. She creates him. The lover acts as if she knows the beloved—and knows him well. Acting somehow produces reality. Therefore the lover creates a reality of which she is the only sharer. (Perhaps, after all, it is possible that the lover has a higher perceptive/understanding ability while she loves…)

The lover’s love for the beloved is a “fictive reality” whose realness is actual only for as long as the lover is entranced and enthralled by the beloved. I tend to compare the process of the beloved falling and being in love with Mr. Wrong with starting to read a novel at a particular given time, whose reality the lover becomes a part of and the hero (or antihero), if increasingly liked, becomes the lover’s beloved. And just like within the reality of the novel, the lover does learn quite a few things about herself and the nature of things while at the same time feeling crushed by the improbability of having the beloved as much as by the impossibility of “marrying” (in the sense of wanting to spend the rest of her days with) an Achilles, or Alcibiades, or Anthony, or Faust, or Bazarov, or Ivan, or Raskolnikov, or Roquentin, or Mersault…or Darl…or…or some other hopeless character, even Gregor Samsa. Just not some kind of fictional Socrates, Descartes, or Russell (our f***ing champions of reason—at least in appearances). NO, thanks.

What interests me about the law are the concepts of right, freedom and justice.
The nature of the government. The extent of its powers, its limitations. The origin of government; its ability to make laws, set rules (beyond the consent of the people), create codes of right/wrong.
How do justice and morality intertwine? Justice and religious faith?
To what extent does religious faith influence politics/diplomacy?
International justice!
***
Yehuda Amichai: “What I will never see again I must love forever.”
Aye!!!
***
Whenever I would cry as a child because my parents would beat me, it was because I could see how it was wrong, unjust…and feeling it made me cry; understanding the truth made me cry…seeing the ugly shape of anger on their faces made me cry.

Crying as an expression of understanding a person, situation, condition, and realizing that you can do nothing to change it, you cannot help it.
***
I can have as much good pot as I want, the best of beers and wines and restaurants and night clubs that San Francisco has to offer….just so, he said. But I CAN’T stand this Harvard MBA’s corporate attitude—even though he does grow orchids on the 14th floor of his SF apartment.
* * *
The feeling of absurdity comes from a realization of your inability to know the nature of things, the why and the how of Nature as a whole and of every its detail/instance.
But feeling that life is absurd seems just as meaningless/nonsensical as feeling that it is (meaningful). Enjoying it and rejoicing in it (thoughtlessly) is the best we should do, and not try or claim to understand it. Tonight I think I can appreciate Camus’ Myth of Sisyphus.
* * *
“When we fall in love it is a revelation.”
“When we are in love we are prophets”
Luke Kirkland (Spinoza? Seminar)
***
 

renea

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Ndersa mua me shqeteson hipokrizia dhe mediokriteti i njeriut si qenine ne pergjithesi.
Pompoziteti i kote dhe mosaftesia jone per t'iu bashkangjitur dickaje me sublime, por biem pre te iluzioneve sekulare , te shishme ne dukje, te pakta ne bollek.Te gatcem te htemi mendimin tone, duke dhene nje pergjigjie "nuk e di", kur i eshte kerkuar mendim dhe njouri atij qe nuk dinte?!

Shoqeria jone vjen ere, ere nga shpirtrat e kalbur semitiste, nga deshirat ne sirtare dhe fytyrat e rreme qe veshim sipas rastit, i gjithe ky operacion "normal" levizet nen nje mediokritet jashteqites qe sjell si pasoje vet-genjimin dhe vet-verbimin.

Fjale, ne fakt lumenj fjalesh, qe sjellin si rezultat ,..gjeje, me shume fjale, me shume hipokrizi, me shume arroance, ndersa e verteta na vervitet para syve.

Vetdigjem ne negativitet nga pompoziteti i nano truve tane, i mirko ideve tona, qe u thurren nga ne, per qejf te prapanices sone.

Kush jam une te marr pergjigjie?
Kush jam te bej pyetje?
Kush jam te kem orbita dhe Hene?
Kush jam une te kundershtoj?

Ne fakt hipokrizia eshte semundje globale, ndaj eshte ngritur ne piedestalin e "normales" dhe "ndjenjes njerzore" apo me qesharakja "konkurence e zakonshme".

Pallavra, askush nuk i ka borxh pergjigjie asnje!
 

Ema

Goddes
Re: thoughts!

Hej,tema esh :thumbsup: te shume e bukur po po qe shkruani edhe ne shqip ndonje gje pls /pf/images/graemlins/smile.gif !
 

Hipparchia

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Tema eshte nisur ne gjuhen angleze, por mqs eshte nje teme e goditur filozofike dhe prej qenies te shume citimeve nga origjinali, nuk po e mbyllim, por do t'u lutesha qe postimet e metejshme te jene ne gjuhen tone shqipe. Flmnd per mirekuptimin!


shenim persa i perket me lart: copezat e mendimeve qe hapin kete teme jane thjesht nga "Hipparchia", mendimet e saj drejtuar kompjuterit, dhe jo "citate" te marra nga "origjinali", i cili per arsye te cuditshme dhe me kaq papergjegjesi nuk eshte dhene ne fund a krye. kaq.
 

Hipparchia

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

(fragment, May, 2002, santa fe, nm)

Edhe pse ajo ishte e bindur qe esenca e njeriut ishte trupi i tij, me mendjen vetem si nje produkt lluksoz, nje ornament, prape perpjekjet e saj per t’u kujdesur ndonjehere si duhej per trupin e vet ishin te kota. Edhe pse vazhdonte te kishte migrena te shpeshta prej me shume se pese vitesh, edhe pse pas te nentembedhjetave menstruacionet i vinin me dhimbje qe pasoheshin nga ulerima dhe lot, mbledhur kembet ne kraharor e me nje jastek te ngjeshur fort mbi koke, ajo gjithnje preferonte ta ndjente thelle dhimbjen, ta vuante me pasion ate, sesa t’i vidhej asaj me ndonje dhimbje-mpires. Kerkonte te rrinte me ‘kembe ngulur’ ne realitetin e hidhur te jetes se saj, mendonte. Ne kete menyre kishte mundesi te njihte aspekte te jetes se saj me qarte, me thelle. Me perjashtimet e vetme kur binte ne dashuri, ne te cilat raste droga provokuese e iluzioneve te saj prodhohej nga vete truri i saj. Dhe ajo e kuptonte qe s’kishte dot asnje pushtet mbi kete te fundit dhe trupi ishte nen funksionin e plote te saj. Prandaj i jepej teresisht iluzioneve te saja dashurore, edhe pse shume shpjet do te behej e ndergjgjshme per pasojat e tyre zhgenjyese. Nga ana tjeter, edhe pse ishte plotesisht ne djeni te faktit qe e abuzonte rende trupin e vet duke rene vone ne gjume, ngritur heret, ngrene pak dhe keq, marre drogera te lehta, etj., ajo s’mund te bente asgje per te ndryshuar ndonje gje ne rutinen e saj te perditshme. Thjesht e shihte veten e vet sic shikon nje spektator aktoren fataliste te tij te preferuar. Dhe ajo qeshte e qante me hijen e saj te pare nga jashte vetes. I vinte keq per te, e prape ajo e pelqente ate ashtu sic ishte dhe nuk do te donte te kishte qene ndryshe.
 

Urim Nerguti

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

U mundova të lexoj midis rreshtave për të kapur fillin filozofik, por mundim i kotë. Për më tepër, tema është "thoughts" që me sa di unë përkthehet "mendimet". Por mendimet nuk janë një kategori filozofike. Është "mendimi" (njëjës) ai që është një gjë e tillë. Në shumës mund të jetë temë për shembull tek psikologjia. Nejse, në këtë temë, siç hyra, dola.
 

Vis Elbasani

Forumium praecox
Re: thoughts!

Hiparchia, miku im, kush e ka thene kete mendimin, Nice, From, se nuk me kujtohet:

Njeriu eshte e vetmja kafshe ekzistenca e te cilit perben nje problem

ë?

Por imponimi i mendimeve te tua ne ship do te ishte me i mirepritur, edhe per ata qe nuk e njohin anglishten. Edhe mua me shqeteson madhsia e te panjohures apo ekzistenca. Mirepo kjo per mua perben nje motiv me shume per te zbuluar njeriun qe eshte ne mua, si dhe njeriun qe eshte jashte meje (te tjeret). Rrofte pafundesia!! (...per te diturin, se per injorantin "RROFTE PERENDIA!")
 

gjekec

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

"Perhaps, after all, it is possible that the lover has a higher perceptive/understanding ability while she loves…) "

Eshte plotesisht e drejte. Shkenca e ka provuar qe emocioni i dashurise rrit nivelin e te gjitha llojeve te neurotransmiters, gjithashtu (rrjedhimisht?) shtohet aktiviteti mendor. Ecstasy ben te njejten gje ne tru qe ben dashuria, shumezuar disa here. Mqs ra fjala, ka kohe qe NYtimes pergenjeshtroi rezultatet e "studimeve" ne John Hopkins university nga ku ecstasy doli se te krijonte vrima ne tru. Efektet pozitive te ecstazy jane ato qe ne fakt duhen te studiohen dhe jo te mbeshtetet verberisht lufta e verber kundra kesaj lloj droge (ilaci)

klik hir 4 the New York Times article
Fillimisht postuar nga Hipparchia:
[qb] eh, ndoshta pafundesia dhe perendia duhet te jene e njejta gje! ;-) [/qb]
Ishte kjo pergjigje pozitive apo negative ne lidhje me perendine?
 

Nella

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Fillimisht postuar nga spaced out:
[qb] "Perhaps, after all, it is possible that the lover has a higher perceptive/understanding ability while she loves…) " [/qb]
I'm afraid it's the other way around my friend. Who the hell was as "prudent" as to make such a bold statement eh?
 

Rambla

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Fillimisht postuar nga Hipparchia:
[qb] eh, ndoshta pafundesia dhe perendia duhet te jene e njejta gje! ;-) [/qb]
Sharp observation!

Duhet patjeter ta kategorizojme pozitiv apo negativ?
 

Hipparchia

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Spaced Out,

jam dakord me ty. dmth, une e besoj ate qe them sepse eksperienca ime verteton nje gje te tille, por perndryshe s'mund te sjell dot 'prova' te nje natyre klinike/shkencore per te bindur "Nella" apo te tjere...madje as nuk besoj se shkenca e studimit te trurit (dhe e efektit te te renit ne dashuri apo te perdorimit te drogerave) mund te na sjelle me afer aftesise per te kuptuar se cfare ndodh vertet me ne si qenje njerezore kur perjetojme keto experienca (whether under the influence of passion or of ecstasy, mushrooms, etc.)

persa i perket pyetjes tende, une nuk e mendova si 'pozitive' apo 'negative', por thjesht ndoshta doja te thosha se njerezit perdorin terma/koncepte te ndryshem per te folur per te njejten gje: ate qe nuk e dime, nuk e kuptojme, asaj qe na tremb a frikeson, asaj qe na ben te kerkojme tere kohes...asaj qe na ben te duam te jetojme, mgjths vuajta duket te jete aq e madhe sa i ben ca edhte te mos e duan kete jete....eshte nje situate tejet absurde, e pare nga nje aspekt fatalist...nuk di c'te shtoj me teper ne keto momente, s'me vjen asgje pozitive ne mendje per te thene....vetem e kunderta
 

glamdring

Forumium praecox
Re: thoughts!

Hehehe, m'u kujtua John Lennon dhe Paul Mc Cartney kur thonin se perdorin drogat per t'u hapur mendjen dhe te provonin apo eksperimentonin ndjesi qe perndryshe ishin pothuajse te pamunduara. Vras mendjen, pasi 20 vitesh nese Paul mban te njejtin qendrim...

Nese zbresim prej godines 100-kateshe te skepticizmit dhe pranojme qe dy njerez mund te kene nje lidhje qe shkon pertej limiteve trupore, atehere ajo lidhje mendore mund te kete rezultate nga me te ndryshmet!

Dashuria si emocion eshte ajo qe na ben ne njerez, dhe eshte emocioni me i forte pas ndjenjes se mbijeteses dhe lidhjes e nenes me femijen...

Po kafshet kane mundesi te dashurojne? Ndjenja jam i sigurte qe kane!

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Nuk mendoj se Zoti eshte perkufizimi i injorances sone! Per mendimin tim personi qe thote kete ESHTE injorant, qofte Pascal apo kushdo tjeter!

Ndonese nuk jam fetar, une mendoj se besimi ne nje super-qenie ka provuar te mirat dhe te keqiat e tija, por nuk mund kurrsesi te them qe 85% e njerezimit qenka gabim, dhe nje cope Pascal paska te drejte! Them 85%, sepse kjo eshte perqindja e njerezimit qe beson ne nje fuqi te mbinatyrshme, pavarsisht nga forma. Dhe ketu po heq fete menjane, sepse ato kane qene mallkin dhe bekim per njerezimin. Mbase Pascal-i ishte aq i verber sa te mos ndjenjte gjera qe ekzistojne pavarsisht nga ekzistenca jone, dhe qe nuk mendoj se shkenca ka per te arritur ndonjehere t'i shpjegoje. (Ah, kujtoj se ky argument eshte perdorur ne shekuj, por nuk e kam llafin per dukuri natyrore, por per gjera te tjera!).

Ahh, per te gjithe ne skeptiket, le te shikojme qiellin (njesoj si greket e lashte) ne nje nate te kthjellet vere dhe te arrijme te kuptojme se cfare therrimesh jemi, dhe sa i pakuptueshem ky univers eshte, sa te vegjel jemi... Megjithate, kjo eshte brima e fundit e kavallit, ne pjesen me te medha te kohes njerezit nuk mendojne per ekzistencen e tyre, qellimin e saj, apo vleren e saj, e megjithate kjo ekzistence ESHTE pavarsisht nga perceptimi yne! Dhe une nuk kam nder mend te tall b.ythen si shume filozofe qe te provoj ekzistencen time, fakti eshte qe sapo e provova 30min me pare ne euforine e ekstazes me te dashuren time...
 

alinos

Forumium maestatis
Re: thoughts!

me sa kuptoj une nga vetja dhe te tjere perreth, ajo qe eshte e rendesishme eshte perfytyrimi i asaj qe na rrethon. Nese perfytyrimi eshte i kendshem (jo pozitiv apo negativ, thjesht terheqes per ne), atehere ai sherben si nxites per shijimin e tij. Kjo do te thote se eksperiencat tona bazohen ne iluzionin qe krijojme ne mendjen tone ne lidhje me nje person, nje fenomen, nje ngjarje. Disa individe e bejne kete nepermjet stimujve qe vijne nga vetja, disa te tjere kerkojne halucinogjene, ne te dyja rastet dikush do te gjykonte se ata po "genjejne" vetveten, ndersa te tjere do te mendonin se persa kohe jane te kenaqur/te lumtur (po te guxonim ne perdorimin e fjales), c'rendesi ka se si eshte arritur kjo kenaqesi/lumturi. Ne fund te fundit ajo qe vlen eshte ajo qe ndjejme.
Une them gjithnje se njerezit jane me te lumtur kur nuk dine, kjo s'ka te beje me injorancen sesa mosnjohjen e nje fakti duke qene se nepermjet kesaj mosnjohje, ne mbajme gjalle iluzionin/iluzionet tona...
 

gjekec

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Fillimisht postuar nga Glamdring:
[qb] , fakti eshte qe sapo e provova 30min me pare ne euforine e ekstazes me te dashuren time... [/qb]
did she say?.. oooh God.. how did I know /pf/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

just kidding eh /pf/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 

gjekec

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Fillimisht postuar nga rambla:
[qb]
Fillimisht postuar nga Hipparchia:
[qb] eh, ndoshta pafundesia dhe perendia duhet te jene e njejta gje! ;-) [/qb]
Sharp observation!

Duhet patjeter ta kategorizojme pozitiv apo negativ? [/qb]
Kategarizohet si Deja - Vue :idea: :thumbsup:
 

Vis Elbasani

Forumium praecox
Re: thoughts!

Fillimisht postuar nga Hipparchia:
[qb] eh, ndoshta pafundesia dhe perendia duhet te jene e njejta gje! ;-) [/qb]
Pafundesia dhe perendia jane, jane, jane e njejta gje, sic jane edhe nata me diten per kafshen dhe njeriun - njeriu deshiron diten, se ajo e mban ne jete, kurse kafsha kerkon naten! /pf/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

bebi

Primus registratum
Re: thoughts!

Fillimisht postuar nga Glamdring:
[qb] Dashuria si emocion eshte ajo qe na ben ne njerez, dhe eshte emocioni me i forte pas ndjenjes se mbijeteses dhe lidhjes e nenes me femijen...


[/qb]
Mbi dashnin Platonike dine tan, por po te kesh lexu Platon te "the republic" e "gorgias" e kupton se ca kishte mendu per ate qe the ma siper. Ne book X, ai flet per artin dhe si arti "appeals to our emotions", por per Platon, arsyja duhet gjithmone me ken siper emocionit, duhet ta kontrollojne gjithmone (gja qe per artistin asht e pamujtun)e per ket asht shum e vshtir me e ba arsyen me dominu mbi emocionin. Meqi kryesisht book X asht mbi mimesis ne art dhe emocionin te lidhun me art, nuk po e baj te g'jate se dal jashte diskutimit, gjithsesi, deshta thjesht me kalxu se filozofi grek Plato nuk e mendon si ti ma siper. :shrug:
 
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